Quarter-Life Capital

George Pu (00:00.762)
Hey everyone, welcome to the special conversation edition of CoreLive Capital. Today I'm talking in a really conversational way with Matt about a topic that just occurred this week. And I personally find it really interesting. So this is something about the CEO of Fiverr who sent their team an email to everybody at the employee. And somebody took a screenshot of his email and shared it with Reddit, shared with Hacker News, and it blew up on the internet and Twitter as well. So I already share this with Matt.

Matt (00:00.802)
Hey everyone, welcome to the special conversation edition of CoreLive Capital. Today I'm talking in a really conversational way with Matt about a topic that just occurred this week. And I personally find it really interesting. So this is something about the CEO of Fiverr who sent their team an email to everybody at the employee and somebody took a screenshot of his email and shared it with Reddit, shared with Hacker News and it blew up on the internet and Twitter as well. So I want to share this with Matt and we have lot of thoughts.

George Pu (00:29.178)
Um, and we have a lot of thoughts to get into this. Um, but I'll just shortly read it, you know, she'll read the key parts of it so you guys can understand as well. So it says, Hey team, I've always believing radical candor and despite those who sugar coat it, um, you care enough about your friends and colleagues to tell them the truth because you want them to be able to understand it, grow and succeed. So here's the unpleasant truth. AI is coming for your jobs. Heck it's coming from my job too. This is a wake up call. It doesn't matter if you're a programmer designer.

Matt (00:30.736)
to get into this. But I'll just shortly read it. You know, she'll read the key parts of it so you guys can understand as well. So it says, Hey team, I've always believed in vertical candor and despite those who sugarcoat it, you care enough about your friends and colleagues to tell them the truth because you want them to be able to understand it, grow and succeed. So here's the unpleasant truth. AI is coming for your jobs. Heck, it's coming for my job too. This is a wake up call. It doesn't matter if you're a programmer, designer, product manager,

George Pu (00:58.874)
product manager, data scientist, lawyer, customer support rep, salesperson or a financial person AI is coming for you You must understand that what was once considered easy task will no longer exist what was considered hard tasks will be the new easy and what was considered impossible will be the new hard I'm not trying to scare you I'm not talking about your job here at Fiverr I'm talking about your ability to stay in your profession in the industry

Matt (01:00.716)
data scientist, lawyer, customer support rep, salesperson, or a financial person. AI is coming for you. You must understand that what was once considered easy task will no longer exist. What was considered hard tasks will never be the new easy. And what was considered impossible will be the new hard. I'm not trying to scare you. I'm not talking about your job here at Fiverr. I'm talking about your ability to stay in your profession in the industry. So Matt, I personally think it

George Pu (01:28.15)
so my personal opinion it it resonated with me a lot but i want to hear your thoughts about first yeah i think what he's trying to get at is that world is changing very quickly and that

Matt (01:30.578)
It resonated with me a lot, but I wanted to hear your thoughts about it first. Yeah, I mean, I think what he's trying to get at is that the world is changing very quickly and that...

George Pu (01:42.938)
I don't know, I feel like it was a bit of a scare tactic. Like you went out there and you kind of said, hey, everyone's job is going to die. And it's like, no, that's not quite right. It's like, OK, the junior people, the people who are lower on the totem pole, like the junior devs, the junior people at the law firms, those jobs aren't going to be as necessary because you can do the initial work so much faster with AI.

Matt (01:42.956)
I don't know, like I feel like it was a bit of a scare tactic. Like he went out there and he kind of said, Hey, everyone's jobs, job is going to die. And it's like, no, that's not quite right. It's, like, okay, the junior people, the people who are lower on the totem pole, like the junior devs, the junior, you know, people at the law firms, you know, those jobs aren't going to be as necessary because you can do like kind of the initial work so much faster with AI.

George Pu (02:10.233)
And the, but I think it also, like it's so weird because it's basically opening up the possibility for everyone to become a god and build whatever they want. But on the other hand, people's jobs are at stake. So I feel like it's kind of the same thing as the beginning of the Industrial Revolution where we went from, you know, 98 % of people being farmers to 2 % of people being farmers. But what I disagreed with was the fact that

Matt (02:10.281)
And the, but I think it also like, it's so weird because it's basically opening up the possibility for everyone to become a God and build whatever they want. But on the other hand, people's jobs are at stake. So I feel like it's kind of the same thing as the beginning of the industrial revolution where we went from, you know, 98 % of people being farmers to 2 % of people being farmers. But, what I disagreed with was the fact that I don't know what his timeline is. Like, yes, if you look, if I look out

George Pu (02:35.827)
I don't know what his timeline is. Like, yes, if you look, if I look out far enough, I think he's correct. But I don't, is he correct in the next like three months? No, because there's so many boomer industries that exist. so I mean, like for yourself, like George, like, are you worried? Like, are you worried about AI immediately taking your job? it's definitely wake up call to see the letter. I guess, I guess I will use the analogy of like a boiling water, right? And I feel like most of us are kind of in that boiling water.

Matt (02:40.205)
far enough I think he's correct but I don't is he correct in the next like three months no because there's so many boomer industries that exist so I mean like for yourself like George like are you worried like are you worried about AI immediately taking George on it's definitely wake up call just see the letter I guess I guess I would use the analogy of like a boiling water and I feel like most of us are kind of in that boiling water

George Pu (03:03.833)
The water is boiling, the temperature's coming up and you're just...

Matt (03:03.853)
The water is boiling, the temperature's coming up and you're just kind of not feeling anything. You're just like, okay, life continues on as usual, right? So for me, I'll tell, share a little bit a story about, know, right before COVID hit, like North America, I'll just share a little bit more about my experience. I went outside and I saw everyone else's continued life as usual, where there was a pandemic happening.

George Pu (03:06.881)
kind of not feeling anything and just like, okay, life continues on as usual, right? So for me, I'll tell, share a little bit story about, you know, right before COVID hit like North America, I'll just share a little bit more about my experience. I went outside and I saw everyone else just continuing their life as usual, where there was a pandemic happening in China, right? And I kind of knew, okay, in the next couple of days, I knew this is going to hit all over the world, but everyone just continuing their life as usual, you know, they don't know what's about to happen, right? And obviously some really bad shit.

Matt (03:24.685)
China and I knew, okay, the next couple of days, I knew this is going to hit all over the world, but everyone just continue with their life as usual. You know, they don't know what's about to happen. Right. And obviously some really bad shit happened and the next two years was hell right from that point forward. So I feel like AI is kind of having the same effect, you know, to people, not, necessarily as a pandemic, but has an effect on, you know, before I hit, you just feel like everything kind of continues on as usual. Right. So for you and me, Matt, I think

George Pu (03:36.748)
happened and the next two years was hell right from that point forward so i feel like ai is kind of having the same effect you know to people not not the same thing as a pandemic but has an effect on you know before it hit you just feel like everything kind of continues on as usual right so for you and me matt i think we already kind of know okay a part of what we do a part of this people that work for us the things that they do they're kind of already being replaced

Matt (03:54.622)
we already kind of know, okay, a part of what we do, a part of this people that work for us, the things that they do, they're kind of already being replaced, you know, more and more, right? So two years ago, it was more about content. It was about if you're writing a blog post, so we used to hire people to write blog posts, so they're gone. And then in this week, actually this very particular week, I...

George Pu (04:03.523)
you know, more and more, right? So two years ago, was more about content. It was about if you're writing a blog post. So we used to hire people to write blog posts, so they're gone. And then in this week, actually this very particular week, I always have someone to help us with local designs.

Matt (04:16.205)
have someone to help us with local designs. Sometimes we have a sub-brand or some sub-products that we need to design the logo, so we pay $80 for that. On Fiverr, actually, ironically. And since Chat GPT rolled out this new image model to generate the new image, I tried it, and it's instant, and it's unique, and I can also generate a new font completely from thin air. So unfortunately for the person who works for us for the logo design,

George Pu (04:18.969)
Sometimes we have a sub-brand or some sub-products that we need to design the logo, so we pay $80 for that. On Fiverr, actually, ironically. And since Chat GPT rolled out this new image model to generate the new image, I tried it, and it's instant, and it's unique, and I can also generate a new font completely from thin air. So unfortunately for the person who works for us for the logo designs, his job is now gone.

Matt (04:46.459)
His job is not gone at least for from from me as a client for him as a freelancer, right? I'm gone I'm not sure if this is happening across though, but what right but you as a creator, right? So I think it's like a situation where the people that are creating things the people that have creativity that want to build things the builders the people that have ideas of a market that they want to go into and create something they're going to be the ones that are going to benefit the most from this because they can think outside the box and say hey This is the market that I want to go after how do I get this?

George Pu (04:47.929)
at least for from from me as a client for him as a freelancer, right? I'm gone. I'm not sure if that's happening across though, but what right. But you as a creator, right? So I think it's like a situation where the people that are creating things, the people that have creativity that want to build things, the builders, the people that have ideas of a market that they want to go into and create something, they're going to be the ones that are going to benefit the most from this because they can think outside the box and say, Hey, this is the market that I want to go after. How do I get this thing done? Oh, well, suddenly it's way.

Matt (05:16.129)
thing done, well suddenly it's way easier for me to get it done. So now the potential for additional companies and products and software that can be built for people is like expanded massively. But rather than everyone having to come in and use like one clunky interface, well now like that can kind of be custom built. You know like for myself like I've literally been you know in my spare time just vibe coding like a dashboard together for like you know like crypto charts for

George Pu (05:17.923)
easier for me to get it done. So now the potential for additional companies and products and software that can be built for people is like expanded massively. But rather than everyone having to come in and use like one clunky interface, well now like that can kind of be custom built, you know, like for myself, like I've literally been, you know, in my spare time, just live coding like a dashboard together for like, you know, like crypto charts for, for like

Matt (05:45.962)
or for like, you know.

George Pu (05:47.756)
you know

Matt (05:50.252)
the funding rates for different futures exchanges in Bitcoin. That's been super useful for me. Even creating a custom thing to just be able to see specific people's Twitter in this dashboard. I can just go and I can just vibe code that together rather than me having to say, it would be great if a product like that existed, but I'm not going to spend the time to build it. Now, I need to go to the washroom and I ask cursor and I literally write in, okay, can you add a component that does this

George Pu (05:50.298)
the funding rates for different futures exchanges in Bitcoin. That's been super useful for me. Even creating a custom thing to just be able to see specific people's Twitter in this dashboard. I can just go and can just vibe code that together rather than me having to say, it would be great if a product like that existed, but I'm not going to spend the time to build it. Now, I need to go to the washroom and I ask cursor and I literally write in, okay, can you add a component that does this?

Matt (06:20.195)
this and this, I go to the wash, I go to the restroom, I come back and it's built. And I'm like, wow, okay, let me add that component. look, it looks nice. You know, and so I feel like the cost of software just becomes so much lower now. but it is going to, like, if you don't, if you're not doing those creative jobs, if you're just really good at one specific task and that task just happens to be replaced by

George Pu (06:20.251)
this and this, I go to the wash, I go to the restroom, I come back and it's built. I'm like, wow, okay, let me add that component. look, it looks nice. You know, and so I feel like the cost of software just becomes so much lower now.

But it is like if you don't, if you're not doing those creative jobs, if you're just really good at one specific task and that task just happens to be replaced by AI. Like if today, chat GPT just decides to go and replace the thing that you're really good at. Well, now you've got to figure out what the next thing, but if you're trying to create new things, I mean, I guess that's the lesson is that creativity is actually the most important thing. Yep. I think it's great for you. I think great for me as like entrepreneurs, you and I.

Matt (06:43.849)
AI like if today chat should be to just decides to go and replace the thing that you're really good at. Well, now you've got to figure out what the next thing, but if you're trying to create new things, I mean, I guess that's the lesson is that creativity is actually the most important thing. Yep. I think it's great for you. I think great for me as like entrepreneurs, you and I, like I wish so homies here, a conversation as well, because I think so I'm gonna share a little bit more about, you know, the experience coming from someone who still has to work for somebody. Right.

George Pu (07:04.559)
I wish Soham is here in the conversation as well because I think Soham can share a little bit more about the experience coming from someone who still has to work for somebody. So the thing is not everyone is going to be privileged to be their own entrepreneur. It's a really hard thing. We went through years before we got to this point.

Matt (07:13.133)
So the thing is like not everyone is going to be privileged to be their own entrepreneur. It's a really hard thing we can through we went through years before we got to this point

George Pu (07:21.503)
it's really freaking hard. Well, for people like that, like I've heard of people that are working at jobs, nine to five, and they're like, well, now thanks to AI, I can get most of my job done in two hours. And then, well, I guess you can spend the other six hours becoming an entrepreneur.

Matt (07:21.513)
It's really freaking hard. Well for people like that, like I've heard of people that are working at jobs, you know, nine to five and they're like, well now thanks to AI, I can get most of my job done in two hours. And then, well, yeah, guess you can spend the other six hours becoming an entrepreneur. So, yeah, but, but, you know, it's not going to work for everybody. And I think like there's going to need to, there's going to be people in every company that are going to be using AI for different workflows. And there's, think there's been a lot of people that have been experimenting with that. Like, okay, how do I take the ideas that I'm talking about and then turn that

George Pu (07:37.25)
Yeah, but it's not going to work for everybody. I think there's going to be people in every company that are going to be using AIs for different workflows. And I think there's been a lot of people that have been experimenting with that. Like, OK, how do I take the ideas that I'm talking about and then turn that into tasks that need to be done? And then they're turning those tasks into dev work for devs to do, if I'm a product manager or whatever. Just auditing the process, or even AI notes that we have now in.

Matt (07:51.41)
until like tasks that need to be done and then they're turning those tasks into like, know, dev work for devs to do, you know, if I'm like a product manager or whatever, like just automating the process or even like AI notes that we have now and you know, if you're in a zoom call or Google meets call, like, you know, being able to automate that process of coming up with all the things. The other day I was actually experimenting with a cool thing, which was like, I was explaining to one of my colleagues like a specific technical idea and he's like, okay, well,

George Pu (08:04.505)
You know, if you're in a zoom call or Google meets call, like, you know, being able to automate that process of coming up with all the things the other day, I was actually experimenting with a cool thing, which was like, I was explaining to one of my colleagues, like a specific technical idea. And he's like, okay, well, why don't you like, before you start talking, turn on chat, GPT, turn on the voice mode, explain what you're doing, have it transcribed it. And then, and then just go into that chat after.

Matt (08:21.263)
Why don't you like before you start talking turn on chat GPT turn on the voice mode? Explain what you're doing have it transcribe it And then and then just go into that chat afterwards and then put it in the bullet points and send it to me Because then I'm to be able to go and understand that better and then I can go and put that into my chat GPT And I can ask it questions so now like the mode of being able to like communicate Complicated ideas to other people is just becoming so much simpler to do even for very complicated

George Pu (08:34.459)
and then put it in the bullet points and send it to me. Because then I'm going to be able to go and understand that better and then I can go and put that into my chat GBT and I can ask it questions. So now like the mode of being able to like communicate complicated ideas to other people is just becoming so much simpler to do even for very complex idea. Like I imagine there's probably like you know physicists or scientists out there that are now able to like imagine you're a really really good like you know PhD level scientist, like top level.

Matt (08:51.423)
idea. Like I imagine there's probably like you know physicists or scientists out there that are now able to connect. Imagine you're a really really good like you know PhD level scientist, like top level and now you're able to convey your ideas to Congress because you can just record yourself talking, put it into bullet points and you know someone can go and read it. So yeah I think it's really revolutionary for the technology.

George Pu (09:04.379)
And now you're able to convey your ideas to Congress because you can just record yourself talking, put in the bullet points and someone can go and read it. I think it's really revolutionary for the technology. I guess my concern a little bit is more on the society justice sort of thing. So in the US we already have Bezos, Bill Gates and all the top people, top 1 % hoarding a significant amount of assets and capital in the country. So for those the same people, those are the same

Matt (09:16.779)
I guess my concern a little bit is more on the society justice sort of thing. So in the US we already have Bezos, Bill Gates and all the top people, top 1 % hoarding a significant amount of assets and capital in the country. for those are the same people who are benefiting right now from AI. Their company stocks are skyrocketing, they're able to replace more workers, firing them, replacing them with either robotics for...

George Pu (09:34.292)
people who are benefiting right now from AI, right? Their company stocks are skyrocketing, they're able to replace more workers, firing them, replacing them with either robotics for, you know, physical tasks or AI with software tasks or like, you know, creativity tasks, right? So of course there's some stuff that AI still cannot replicate or do, but using my logo example, I wouldn't have thought this was possible two years ago when Chat GPT just came out. I wouldn't have thought I would be replacing my logo designer.

Matt (09:43.862)
physical tasks or AI with software tasks or like, know, creativity tasks, right? So of course there's some stuff that AI so can now replicate or do, but using my local example, I wouldn't have thought this was possible two years ago when Chedri just came out. I wouldn't have thought I would be replacing my local designer today using that same technology, right?

George Pu (10:01.273)
today using that same technology, right? But it happened. So the breakthrough is really happening really fast. So I'm wondering, because I know we're in software, right? A lot of people that are not in software, they're not in the software industry or in tech, but maybe they're in retail, maybe they're in finance, maybe they're in some other work in different parts of the world, right? So wouldn't that create a societal problem when too many people are being replaced with AI or do you think...

Matt (10:04.337)
it happened. So the breakthrough is really happening really fast. So I'm wondering, because I know we're in software, right? A lot of people that are not in software, they're not in the software industry or in tech, but maybe they're in retail.

Maybe they're learning finance, maybe they're in some other work in different parts of the world. So wouldn't that create a societal problem when too many people are being replaced with AI? Or do you think it's the analogy that, okay, more jobs should be created also. Short-term pain for long-term gain, I think is the game. Like that's what I feel like is that you have a situation where there's a significant number of people whose jobs are being replaced. And then it just hasn't caught up yet where there's going to be like the new

George Pu (10:28.747)
It's the analogy that okay, more jobs should be created also. Short term pain for long term gain, I think is the game like.

That's what I feel like is that you have a situation where there's a significant number of people whose jobs are being replaced and then it just hasn't caught up yet where there's going to be like the new companies that are going to be created that could have never be created before haven't quite come to fruition yet. And there's always going to be a need for people to level up. Like and I think that's what the Fiverr CEO was getting into was he was trying to say like wake the hell up everybody because whatever you're doing now is no

Matt (10:46.587)
The new companies that are going to be created that could have never be created before haven't quite come to fruition yet and There's always gonna be a need for people to level up like and I think that's what the fiverr CEO was getting into was he was trying to say like wake the hell up everybody because Whatever you're doing now is not worth as much as you think it is right like what you're doing today

George Pu (11:06.651)
worth as much as you think it is, right? Like what you're doing today, an AI will be able to do the majority of it and a small portion of it will be extremely valuable. So start spending your time on figuring out how to do that specific thing that nobody else can do and automate the rest of your workflow as quickly as possible. But I do think it does, it creates a short-term problem because it is a situation where the rich get richer but

Matt (11:12.361)
And AI will be able to do the majority of it and a small portion of it will be extremely valuable. So start spending your time on figuring out how to do that specific thing that nobody else can do and automate the rest of your workflow as quickly as possible. But I do think it does, it creates a short-term problem because it is a situation where the rich get richer. But it's just because those companies haven't been created yet. So...

George Pu (11:35.746)
It's just because those companies haven't been created yet.

Matt (11:38.702)
I think actually the Fiverr guys, his message to everyone was like, okay, well, let's speed up that process. Everyone needs to wake up. And at the same time, I also feel that there's going to be a lot of boomer industries that are going to have a significant number of people that don't upgrade for years. How long did it take for basic technologies to make their way into large governmental organizations that were kind of slow, slow moving? It's going to take a while. And I think it's going to be a similar situation.

George Pu (11:38.764)
I think actually the Fiverr guys, his message to everyone was like, okay, well, let's speed up that process. Everyone needs to wake up. And at the same time, I also feel that there's going to be a lot of boomer industries that are going to have a significant number of people that don't upgrade for years. How long did it take for basic technologies to make their way into large governmental organizations that were kind of slow moving? It's going to take a while. And I think it's going to be a similar situation.

Matt (12:08.755)
here but the fast-moving industries is I think where it's going to be updated very quickly like startups are going to immediately start using all of these workflows more and more rappers are going to be created so for you George like within your company like what other ways have so you've already replaced certain things like you know logo creations have you been looking at updating you know anything else within it

George Pu (12:08.758)
here.

But the fast moving industries is I think where it's going to be updated very quickly. Like startups are going to immediately start using all of these workflows. More more wrappers are going to be created. So for you, George, like within your company, what other ways have, so you've already replaced certain things like, you know, logo creations. Have you been looking at updating, you know, anything else within it? Yeah, I think, I think we really, I think looking at our company, right. And I think today's

Matt (12:37.773)
I think looking at our company, and I think today's company is so different from the company a year ago. A year ago, the company was so different than two years ago. And today, I think our entire ops is basically running on one person.

George Pu (12:40.697)
company is so different from the company a year ago, a year ago company so different than two years ago. And today I think our entire ops is basically running on one person, I guess. So it's really good for sovereign builders. So I think of myself as more and more as a sovereign builder. And what does that mean is that you use arbitrage, right? You hire contractors from different countries to do the work that you want them to do and still pay them a fair wage according to their local, you know, currencies and local job markets. So I've been doing that

Matt (12:51.053)
So it's really good for sovereign builders. So I think of myself as more and more as a sovereign builder. And what does that mean is that you use arbitrage, right? You hire contractors from different countries to do the work that you want them to do and still pay them a fair wage according to their local, you know, currencies and local job markets. So I've been doing that since I started my company, I guess. So for example, like we have our software engineers based in India, which almost everybody I know can do that, right? We have our...

George Pu (13:10.587)
since I started my company, guess. So for example, like we have our software engineers based in India, which almost everybody I know can kind of do that, right? We have our UI, UX designer in Pakistan and we have, you know, we have different people in different countries who are doing our stuff. So we used to have a lot bigger team. Now we have smaller. And right now I think for us is more about figuring out like the workflows of how you want to do certain things. For example, like with email campaigns used to be like, we're sitting in this room. We'll put it on the

Matt (13:21.247)
designer in Pakistan and we have you know we have different people in different countries who are doing our stuff so we used to have a lot bigger team now we have smaller and right now I think for us is more more about figuring out like the workflows of how you want to do certain things for example like with email campaigns used to be like we're sitting in this room we'll put it on the whiteboard

George Pu (13:40.54)
whiteboard about the sequences. So now it's all just like a know a click of a button and some prompts and copy and paste and some edits and that's it. Do you think like with all these tools coming in fruition we're gonna have more and more small companies like

Matt (13:41.646)
about the sequences. So now it's all just like a click of a button and some prompts and copy and paste and some edits. And that's it. Do you think like with all these tools coming to fruition, we're going to have more and more small companies? Like what I'm hearing from you basically is that a bunch of your workflows have been kind of, you've been able to automate them. So it's gone from like you needing like two or three people to do something. Like I remember you telling me your company went all the way up to 15 people.

George Pu (13:58.298)
What I'm hearing from you basically is that a bunch of your workflows have been kind of, you've been able to automate them. So it's gone from like you needing like two or three people to do something. Like I remember you telling me your company went all the way up to 15 people and then, you know, it was reduced like substantially from there. You know, the jobs of like one, two, three or four people can now be reduced to one. And so it feels to me like the likelihood of there being more and more companies that are actually very small, like small scale startup.

Matt (14:11.599)
and then it was reduced substantially from there. The jobs of one, two, three, or four people can now be reduced to one. And so it feels to me like the likelihood of there being more and more companies that are actually very small, like the small scale startup.

You can have 10 or 20 or 30 X the number of those that we have today that can be all be going after like different different industries and actually you don't need to have like a large conglomerate to go and achieve something anymore. I think today's companies are going to be so different from yesterday's companies like Warren Buffett just retired right so so and that's kind of like marking as the end of an era too because like whatever is going to start now it's going to look significantly different from before and with our experience we did have 14 people.

George Pu (14:28.811)
You can have 10 or 20 or 30 X the number of those that we have today that can be all be going after like different different industries and actually you don't need to have like a large conglomerate to go and achieve something anymore. think today's companies gonna be so different from yesterday's companies like Warren Buffett just retired right so so and that's kind of like marking as end of an era too because like whatever is gonna start now it's gonna look significantly different from before and with our experience we we did have 14

people, there was some internal fallouts or whatever issues. we kind of went down to about, think five, something like that. Right. but the thing is we never, we're a neighbor. We never had the need to add anybody in the past two years. So that was like the difference maker, I guess. So it's like something happened. We went from 14 people to five people, but with AI and I was trying very hard to adapt to it and trying to create value, you know, using AI. we do, we do spend some on the AI bill, but it's negligible.

Matt (14:58.607)
There was some internal fallouts or whatever issues, so we kind of went down to about, I think, five, something like that, right? But the thing is, we never had the need to add anybody in the past two years. So that was like the difference maker, I guess. So was like something happened. We went from 14 people to five people, but with AI, and I was trying very hard to adapt to it and trying to create value.

you know, using AI. So we do spend some on the AI bill, but it's negligible, right? I think in terms of the value it creates. So for us, it's like, we never have to have people, you know, for you, Matt, for your company, how are you guys using AI? Like, what are you realizing? Well, I think it's increased the ability for doing development substantially, right? So everyone being able to, you know, the number of developers that we need is substantially reduced.

George Pu (15:28.141)
I think in terms of the value creates. So for us, it's like we never have to add people. For you, Matt, for your company, how are you guys using AI? What are you realizing? Well, I think it's increased the ability for doing development substantially. So everyone being able to, the number of developers that we need is substantially reduced.

Matt (15:50.678)
you know, in terms of like designs or logos or things of that nature being created, like that could all be done by AI now. And that's really great. So in general, I think it's just reduce the number of like people we need on the team. And then it becomes more, there's certain things that become more important, which is like specific domain knowledge, right? Like, so we're doing stuff with Bitcoin. So specific domain knowledge about Bitcoin script and how that works and the software behind it, because obviously that needs to be extremely secure. You're not going to just rely

George Pu (15:50.702)
you know, terms of like designs or logos or things of that nature being created, like that can all be done by AI now. And that's really great. So in general, I think it's just reduce the number of like people we need on the team. And then it becomes more, there's certain things that become more important, which is like specific domain knowledge, right? Like, so we're doing stuff with Bitcoin, so specific domain knowledge about Bitcoin script and how that works and the software behind it, because obviously that needs to be extremely secure. You're not going to just rely

Matt (16:20.631)
on AI to go and review code that's interacting with the blockchain. That's really scary. Anything finance related, you need a pair of human eyes to go and look at that. Thinking about things like the user experience, right? When the user experience is being created, you need a human thinking about that because you want to make sure that the flow is as easy and simple as possible. But a lot of the pieces in between can be generated using AI. And so then things within the organization

George Pu (16:20.635)
on AI to go and review code that's interacting with the blockchain. That's really scary. Anything finance related, you need a pair of human eyes to go look at that. Thinking about things like the user experience, right? When the user experience is being created, you need a human thinking about that because you want to make sure that the flow is as easy and simple as possible. But a lot of the pieces in between can be generated using AI. And so then things within the organization side

Matt (16:50.511)
such as who has the best connections to so and so, who are the people you know? It's not what you know, it's who you know. And so that becomes increasingly important because that opens more doors than just the individual knowledge because everyone has access to that knowledge. So I think it's been a similar situation for us where we haven't had to add anybody in quite a long time. And with the new venture we're working on, I don't anticipate us needing to add a significant number of developers.

George Pu (16:50.635)
as you know who has the best connections to so-and-so like who are the people you know like it's not what you know it's who you know and so that becomes increasingly important because that opens more doors than just the individual knowledge because everyone has access to that knowledge so I think it's been a similar situation for us where we haven't had to add anybody in you know quite a long time and with the new venture we're working on I don't anticipate us need to add like a significant number of developers right

Matt (17:20.431)
It's not like, hey, we need to add, as soon as we have an MVP or a V1 or a V2 of the product, you don't suddenly need to add like three, four, five, 10 engineers. It's not a 10 engineer team. It's like an engineering team of three people or four people. And I think that really changes the game in terms of what you can accomplish with a small team. Yeah, I think it changed the VC bubble for one, in my opinion.

George Pu (17:20.475)
It's not like, Hey, we need to add, you know, as soon as we have an MVP or V1 or V2 of the product, you don't suddenly need to add like three, four, five, 10 engineers. It's not a 10 engineer team. It's like an engineering team of three people or four people. And I think that really changes the game in terms of like what you can accomplish with a small team. Yeah. I think it changed the VC bottle for one, in my opinion, right? Like it was like, you have to raise millions for you to have your idea brought into fruition for you to have.

Matt (17:45.134)
was like you have to raise millions for you to have your idea brought into fruition, you to have a product, you to release a product, for you have customers, for you to get things going, right? But a lot of things that we saw during the boom of 2021 is that, of the venture capital, by the way, was wasteful spending, corporate trips to Argentina and to Brazil and to, you know, wherever it is.

George Pu (17:50.428)
a product for you to release a product for you to have customers for you to get things going right but a lot of things that we saw during the boom of 2021 is that of the venture capital by the way was wasteful spending

corporate trips to Argentina, to Brazil and to know, wherever it is, marketing spends on Facebook and Google as if that's the only way to get customers. So I think we've had a few years of rationalization for that. And I'm realizing that if you're a startup company, don't really need to raise capital. If you're just you, for example, if it's just you, Matt, and you and I, we want to start a company, right? We want to build a software business together.

Matt (18:07.149)
spends on Facebook and Google as if that's the only way to get customers. So I think we've had a few years of rationalization for that and I'm realizing that if you're a startup company you don't really need to raise capital. If you're just you, for example, it's just you Matt and you and I, we want to start a company.

We want to build a software business together Do we really need to raise it's kind of what I'm thinking do you think you really do raise if you start out? Yeah Well, I think that's I think this is actually something that a lot of VCs were are now in the back of their mind like if I'm a VC and I'm looking to invest in a company my question in the back of my mind is how long would it take me to use AI to go and replicate what you what you are now presenting to me and if that amount of time is very low if I'm able to go and basically create an

George Pu (18:26.649)
Do we really need to raise? It's kind of what I'm thinking. Do you, do you think you really need to raise if you start now?

Yeah, well, think this is actually something that a lot of VCs are now in the back of their mind. If I'm a VC and I'm looking to invest in a company, my question in the back of my mind is how long would it take me to use AI to go and replicate what you are now presenting to me? And if that amount of time is very low, if I'm able to go and basically create an MVP of your product overnight or over the course of a week, well, then maybe I'm less likely to invest in your startup because I know that I can just go and create it myself.

Matt (18:53.135)
of your product overnight or over the course of a week, well then maybe I'm less likely to invest in your startup because I know that I can just go and create it myself. And so your moat is going to be very low. And so what else are you bringing to the table? Is it the connections that you have? Is it the people you know? Is there something unique that you have that you're bringing to the table? It's not just how fast can you build because the building is no longer the problem. It's not about the tech anymore, it's about the distribution. I agree. I think trust is actually another factor.

George Pu (19:02.137)
remote is going to be very low. And so what else are you bringing to the table? Is it the connections that you have? Is it the people you know? Is there something unique that you have that you're bringing to the table? It's not just how fast can you build because the building is no longer the problem. It's not about the tech anymore. It's about the distribution. I agree. I think trust is actually another factor of what's going to differentiate things from now on. I think about somebody who just uses AI for live code. Just an extreme example of copying whatever I'm doing with my software business.

Matt (19:21.065)
of what's going to differentiate things from now on. I think about somebody who just uses AI for live code, just an extreme example of copying whatever I'm doing.

software business, they can probably build everything. They can probably replicate everything. Two things I probably can't replace right away is that our understanding of our customers, which I think is very unique and learned through iterations and compounding. The second is trust, right? So trust is something that you cannot replace with AI. And that's something I think is really valuable. For example, this podcast that we're doing right now, it's building trust, it's building audiences, it's building people that get to know like you Matt, know, the great.

George Pu (19:31.98)
They can probably build everything. They can probably replicate everything. Two things that probably can replace right away is that our understanding of our customers, which I think is very unique and learned through iterations and compounding. The second is trust, right? So trust is something that you cannot replace with AI. And that's something I think is really valuable. For example, this podcast that we're doing right now, it's building trust, it's building audiences, it's building people that get to know like you, Matt, know, great Bitcoin person who understands everything and can code, me, George and

Matt (19:59.182)
who understands everything in code, me, George, entrepreneur, know, vibe coder, so to speak. So I think that's building up more trust for us as a brand, using it as an example. And two years down the line, we'll have more audiences, we'll have more influences, and we'll have more people that got to know us. So if we want to advertise our product, the trust factor is there and it cannot be replicated.

George Pu (20:04.722)
So I think that's building up more trust for us as a brand, using it as an example. And two years down the line, we'll have more audiences, we'll have more influences, and we'll have more people that got to know us. So if we want to advertise our product, the trust factor is there and it cannot be replicated.

So that's kind of what I'm thinking. Trust would be a big factor. I completely agree. It's about trust. It's about, and I think the other thing too is what people used to do a lot of in the past was before they even started building a product, it's like, okay, well, is there a market for this? And we're starting to get to the point with AI where rather than going and sitting there and like trying to figure out, you know, is there a product that can be built and is there a customer that wants this and let's go do customer

Matt (20:21.855)
So that's kind of what I'm thinking. Trust will be a big factor. I completely agree. It's about trust. It's about and I think the other thing too is what people used to do a lot in the past was before they even started building a product. It's like, okay, well, is there a market for this? And we're starting to get to the point with AI where rather than going and sitting there and like trying to figure out, you know, is there a product that can be built and is there a customer that wants this and let's go do customer

or interviews and chat with, you know, 10, 20 people to find out if this is a need that they actually want. Well, the amount of time that you would actually spend to do that, like you could have spent half of that time and just built the product and launched it and iterated three times. And so I think that's actually really good because it means that, you know,

George Pu (20:51.923)
interviews and chat with you know 10-20 people to find out if this is a need that they actually want well the amount of time that you would actually spend to do that like you you could have spent half of that time and just built the product and launched it and iterated three times and so I think that's actually really good because it means that you know

Matt (21:13.803)
What is it? What is the term in finance? Like time in market beats timing the market. So which I think is actually true here, right? Like you're basically spending a time to, you know, get the product out there and then find out if it works and launch quickly. And people, also, what I've noticed is that people's expectations have actually lowered in terms of product because they know that people can launch things quickly. So if someone has an idea for a specific product, you can go and build it out overnight. create the landing page overnight. You go and launch it. You find out if

George Pu (21:13.815)
What is it? What is the term in finance? Like time in market beats timing the market. So which I think is actually true here, right? Like you're basically spending the time to, you know, get the product out there and then find out if it works and launch quickly. And people, also, what I've noticed is that people's expectations have actually lowered in terms of product because they know that people can launch things quickly. So if someone has an idea for a specific product, you can go and build it out overnight. You create the lightning page overnight. You go and launch it. You find out if

Matt (21:43.71)
people like it, even if it's a bad version of it, if it's an MVP, well, people will give you feedback on it and you know if you get a significant amount of feedback and a lot of people that are commenting on it, okay, well now you can go and spend the time to do iterations. And in the past, you would have literally needed to spend months on my customer interviews, months building out the product. And at the end of all of that, you could have ended up building something that nobody even wanted. So I think this is really good for just the ability for new businesses that like people, people that say things like, I

George Pu (21:43.722)
people like it, even if it's a bad version of it, if it's an MVP, well people will give you feedback on it and you know if you get a significant amount of feedback and a lot of people that are commenting on it, okay well now you can go and spend the time to do iterations. And in the past you would have literally need to spend months on my customer interviews, months building up the product, and at the end of all of that you could have ended up building something that nobody even wanted. So I think this is really good for just the ability for new businesses that like people that say things like, I

Matt (22:13.613)
I had something that was able to do this. Well, there's more and more people that were never able to code previously that are just going to be able to build it for themselves and then suddenly realize that that's actually a good product for, you know, a hundred thousand other people. And so I'm just excited to see what gets built. It's really amazing. So just to close it out, let's each share a little bit more about like our conclusions or the last words on this topic. So for me, I think, I think what you, what you said about,

George Pu (22:13.615)
I I had something that was able to do this.

there's more and more people that were never able to code previously that are just going to be able to build it for themselves and then suddenly realize that that's actually a good product for, a hundred thousand other people. And so I'm just excited to see what gets built. It's really amazing. So just to close it out, let's each share a little bit more about like our conclusions or the last words on this topic. So for me, I think, I think what you, what you said about your skillsets are depreciating and the value of way creating are depreciating because of AI. think that really hits me because

Matt (22:39.809)
your skill sets are depreciating and the value of what you're creating are depreciating because of AI. think that really hits me because that is entirely true. Everything that we hold ourselves to value, whether you're an accountant, a founder.

George Pu (22:47.105)
that is entirely true. Everything that we hold ourselves to value, whether you're an accountant, a founder, a finance person or whatever, your value has already been dropped by 50, 60 % probably because of AI. And most of us, including me, probably hasn't realized that. And I just realized how important it is just to take that first step, acknowledging the value I'm able to create is actually 60 % less than what I think it is. And that probably can drive you to make the change you need to improve yourself.

Matt (22:52.917)
a finance person or whatever, your value has already been dropped by 50, 60 percent probably because of AI. And most of us, including me, probably hasn't realized that. And I just realized how important it is to take that first step acknowledging the value I'm able to create is actually 60 percent less than what I think it is. And that probably can drive you to make the change you need to improve yourself and improve your skill sets and actually be a better person and be more competitive in workforce. So for our listeners, guess that's the advice, the takeaway.

George Pu (23:15.577)
and improve your skill sets and actually be a better person and be more competitive in the workforce. So for our listeners, guess that's the advice, the takeaway of this video. Matt, what's yours? Well, I think it's that everyone can be a little bit more humble, right? If you thought you were.

Matt (23:22.831)
of this video. Matt, what's yours? Well, I think it's that everyone could be a little bit more humble, right? If you thought you were whatever value you thought you had, like isn't as high as you thought it was. And so it just shows that like continuously learning.

George Pu (23:32.951)
whatever value you thought you had, like isn't as high as you thought it was. And so it just shows that like continuously learning.

Matt (23:41.289)
is like the most important thing that you can do. think in life in general is like continuous learning is the most important thing. Because if you're not continuously learning, then you're falling behind. And I think we're just in a technological advancement of humanity that is exponential, right? Every year.

George Pu (23:41.301)
is like the most important thing that you could do. think in life in general is like continuous learning is the most important thing. Because if you're not continuously learning, then you're falling behind. And I think we're just in a technological advancement of humanity that is exponential, right? Every year, people can't even predict what's going to happen in the next two years. I don't know, in 10 years, Boston dynamic robots, we might have humanoid robots in like everybody's household and you might never need to do the laundry again.

Matt (24:00.434)
people can't even predict what's going to happen in the next two years. I don't know, in 10 years, Boston Dynamic Robots, we might have humanoid robots in everybody's household and you might never need to do the laundry again. It might take care of it for you. So, yeah, just keep learning. Never stop learning. Being humble. think that's a great word. So, if you like the content, give us a subscribe, give us a like, and thank you so much for listening. Nice. That was fun.

George Pu (24:11.195)
take care of it for you. So yeah, just keep learning. Never stop learning. Being humble, think that's a great word. So if you like the content, give us a subscribe, give us a like, and thank you so much for listening.

George Pu (24:26.522)
That was fun.