Quarter-Life Capital

George Pu (00:00.939)
Hey everyone, welcome to Quarter Life Capital. Today we have a really interesting topic to talk about. think a lot of our listeners are talking about it, Matt.

Matt (00:01.156)
Hey everyone, welcome to Quarter Life Capital. Today we have a really interesting topic to talk about. think a lot of our listeners are talking about a map, which is basically asset allocation. think Soham talked about in our last episode, whereas now it's a little bit difficult to invest in the U.S. So maybe it's easier to invest elsewhere in the international market. And that's not even talking about Bitcoin, right? So let's go to Soham first. Like, what do you think about the allocation any investor in their 20s should be thinking about right now? Is it to move more of their assets over

Soham Mehta (00:01.294)
Hey everyone, welcome to Corelite Capital. Today we have a really interesting topic to talk about. think a lot of our listeners are talking about that, which is basically asset allocation. I think so I'm talking about in our last episode, whereas now it's a little bit difficult to invest in the US. So maybe it's easier to invest elsewhere in international market. And that's not even talking about Bitcoin.

George Pu (00:07.477)
which is basically asset allocation. think Soham talked about in our last episode, whereas now it's a little bit difficult to invest in the U.S. So maybe it's easier to invest elsewhere in the international market. And that's not even talking about Bitcoin. So let's go to Soham first. What do you think about the allocation any investor in their 20s should be thinking about right now? Is it to move more of their assets overseas to maybe Europe, South America or the World Index? What are you thinking right now?

Soham Mehta (00:22.606)
So let's go to Soham first. What do you think about the allocation any investor in their 20s should be thinking about right now? Is it to move more of their assets overseas to maybe Europe, South America, or the world index? What are you thinking right now? Yeah, I'll take one step back. think usually investors invest inside of the capital markets, which explains like equities and debt. And so during times of more risk, people kind of fly away from equities, go more into debt.

Matt (00:31.11)
seas to maybe Europe, South America or like a war index. What are you thinking right now? Yeah, I'll take one step back. think usually investors invest inside of the capital markets, which is split into like both equities and debt. And so during times of more risk, people kind of fly away from equities, go more into debt and in times of lower risk, people then obviously go into equities instead of debt. And I think we're getting to a point right now where it's specifically in the US, it's becoming a very volatile market as you just mentioned, George.

George Pu (00:37.411)
I'll take one step back. I think usually investors Invest inside of the capital markets, which is like equities and debt and so during times of more risk people kind of fly away from my please go more into debt and times of lower risk people then obviously go into equities instead of debt and I think we're getting to a point right now where it's specifically in the US it's becoming very volatile market as you just mentioned George and so now Investors trying to figure out where to be able to allocate their money and so the traditional sense has always been like

Soham Mehta (00:50.616)
and in times of lower risk, people then obviously go into equities instead of debt. And I think we're getting to a point right now where, specifically in the US, it's becoming a very volatile market, as you just mentioned, George. And so now, investors are trying to figure out where to be able to allocate their money. And so the traditional sense has always been like now flight to bonds, but now the most gold standard bond, which was like the US treasury, has started becoming lower in terms of attractiveness to investors. So now people are starting to think

Matt (01:01.388)
And so now investors are trying to figure out where to be able to allocate their money. And so the traditional sense has always been like now flight to bonds, but now the most gold standard bond, was like the U S treasurer has started becoming lower in terms of like attractiveness to investors. So now people are starting to think more international as like you're mentioning. And I think right now is like a good time to be able to start figuring out where in the world do you really want to see like your currency going, your like money being in

George Pu (01:07.361)
now flight to bonds, but now the most gold standard bond, was like the US Treasury started becoming lower in terms of like attractiveness to investors. So now people are starting to think more internationally as like you're mentioning. I think right now is like a good time to be able to start figuring out where in the world do you really want to see like your currency going your like money being invested. I think still the answer probably is USA but I think it is that because of the idea of process of elimination because of the

Soham Mehta (01:20.334)
more internationally as like you're mentioning. I think right now is a good time to able to start figuring out where in the world do you really want to see like your currency going, your like money being invested. I think still the answer probably is USA. But I think it is that because of the idea of process of elimination because of the other risk of different countries, more so than it just being the gold standard, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think some people are very against young people buying bonds because they have ideas like for young...

Matt (01:30.237)
I think still the answer probably is USA But I think it is that because of the idea of process of elimination because of the other risk of different countries More so than it just being the gold standard if that makes sense Yeah, I think some people are very against young people buying bonds because the idea is that you're very young and you're buying bonds That's not really the asset class where you should be right so mad or I don't know. Do you know anyone who buys bond?

George Pu (01:37.233)
other risk of different countries more so than it just being the gold standard if that makes sense yeah I think some people are very against young people buying bonds because the idea is that if you're young and you're buying bonds that's not really the asset class where you should be right so Matt or I don't know do you know anyone who buys bond? I don't know a single person is buying bonds man

Soham Mehta (01:49.422)
That's not really the asset class where you should be, right? So mad or I don't know. Do you know any?

Matt (01:55.874)
I don't know a single person who's buying bonds, man.

Soham Mehta (01:56.014)
I don't know a single person who's buying bonds. I'm assuming you're not recommending people to buy bonds. Well, my advice is simple. Buy Bitcoin and hold for the next 10 years. All the people that I know that have done that have done incredibly well. Bitcoin in particular typically does like 200 % returns year over year. Any one year might be down substantially. We saw the last cycle go all the way up to 68,000 come all the way down to

Matt (02:01.316)
Well, my advice is simple buy Bitcoin and hold for the next 10 years All the people that I know that have done that have done incredibly well, you know Bitcoin and you know in particular typically does like 200 % returns year over year any one year might be down Substantially, you know, we saw in the last cycle go all the way up to you know, 68,000 come all the way down to 18,000 but now it's sitting almost at 100k again And so, you know, we're gonna repeat that cycle again and again

George Pu (02:01.348)
Well, my advice is simple buy Bitcoin and hold for the next 10 years All the people that I know that have done that have done incredibly well

Bitcoin in particular typically does like 200 % returns year over year. Any one year might be down substantially. We saw the last cycle go all the way up to 68,000, come all the way down to 18,000, but now it's sitting almost at 100K again. And so we're going to repeat that cycle again and again. In my world, if you're not 100 % Bitcoin, you're bearish.

Soham Mehta (02:25.198)
18,000 but now it's sitting almost at 100k again. And so, you know, we're going to repeat that cycle again and again. In my world, if you're not 100 % Bitcoin, you're bearish. you know, I recommend people, you know, don't put money into Bitcoin that you need next week. Put your money into Bitcoin that you're willing to sit there and hold for the next 10 years. But I think the other thing that's weird with our generation too is that

Matt (02:31.27)
In my world, if you're not 100 % Bitcoin, you're bearish. you know, I recommend people, know, don't put money into Bitcoin that you need next week. Put your money into Bitcoin that you're willing to sit there and hold for the next 10 years. But I think the other thing that's weird with our generation too is that...

George Pu (02:38.337)
I recommend people, know, don't put money into Bitcoin that you need next week. Put your money into Bitcoin that you're willing to sit there and hold for the next 10 years. But I think the other thing that's weird with our generation too is that, like real estate, right? Real estate is something that boomers got pretty cheap. And then we had interest rates that were ridiculously low.

Matt (02:54.754)
Like real estate, right? Real estate is something that boomers got pretty cheap. And then we had interest rates that were ridiculously low. We had access to free, you know, almost free debt for mortgages for a long period of time. The cost of housing is way up. And people still have this idea, especially people of our age, like, like I know so many people in our age group that are like, I hope I'll be able to buy a house one day, which is just insane to be in that place.

Soham Mehta (02:54.894)
Like real estate, right? Real estate is something that boomers got pretty cheap. And then we had interest rates that were ridiculously low. had access to free, you know, almost free debt for mortgages for a long period of time. Cost of housing is way up. Um, and people still had this idea, especially people of our age, like, Oh, I know so many people in our age group that are like, Oh, I hope I'll be able to buy a house one day, which is just insane to be in that place.

George Pu (03:03.509)
We had access to free, almost free debt for mortgages for a long period of time. The cost of housing's way up. And people still had this idea, especially people of our age, like, I know so many people in our age group that are like, I hope I'll be able to buy a house one day, which is just insane to be in that place. I think there's a lot more people that are thinking about, well, why don't I just rent and buy Bitcoin? Because that's actually going to help perform

Matt (03:24.784)
I think like, you know, there's a lot more people that are thinking about well Why don't I just rent and buy Bitcoin because that's actually going to help perform the real estate market for example. Yeah, I think that's very interesting I think in general we've been hearing young people in the Western world in Canada in the US We're saying that okay. might never be able to own a house

Soham Mehta (03:25.033)
I think like, you know, there's a lot more people that are thinking about why don't I just rent and buy Bitcoin because that's actually going to help perform the real estate market. Yeah, I think that's very interesting. I think in general, we've been hearing young people in the Western world and the US who are saying, okay, I might never be able to own a house or own a home. On the other side, think that I just mentioned that the flip side is that maybe some people are saying that you don't actually need to own a home, maybe real estate.

George Pu (03:32.885)
the real estate market, for example. Yeah, I think that's very interesting. I think in general, we've been hearing young people in the Western world, Canada, in the US, who are saying, okay, I might never be able to own a house or own a home.

Matt (03:43.653)
or own a home. the other side, I Maggie just mentioned that the flip side is that maybe some people are saying that you don't actually need to own a home. Maybe real estate in the 21st century at this very moment in 2020, in the mid 2020s, real estate is not the key. So Soham, I know you know a lot about real estate. Would you recommend real estate as an asset class for people in their 20s? Yeah, I think one of the hard parts about real estate is this idea that

George Pu (03:44.993)
I think I just mentioned that the flip side is that maybe some people are saying that you don't actually need to own a home. Maybe real estate in the 21st century at this very moment in the mid 2020s, real estate is not the king. So I know you know a lot about real estate. Would you recommend real estate as an asset class for people in their 20s? Yeah, think one of the hard parts about real estate is this idea that when you go in the capital markets, it's a small amount of money.

Soham Mehta (03:53.608)
in the 21st century at this very moment in 2020, you know, in the mid 2020s, real estate is not key. So, Soham, I know you know a lot about like real estate. Would you recommend real estate as an asset class for people in the 20s? Yeah, I think one of the hard parts about real estate is this idea that when you go in the capital markets, it's a small amount of money you can put in, you can you can divide it, it's divisible. With real estate, whatever you're putting in, you're probably saving up a long time to able to

Matt (04:14.18)
It's a small amount of money you can put in. You can divide it, it's divisible. With real estate, whatever you're putting in, you're probably saving up a long time to able to purchase one of something. And so I think at 20-something years old, putting almost all your eggs in one basket is gonna be risky. It doesn't matter what that kind of basket is to a certain extent. And then the other part that Matt's kind of mentioning is we've started getting very inflated real estate prices. In Canada, we've probably felt this more than other places in the world. The idea that...

George Pu (04:14.967)
You can put in you can you can divide it as divisible with real estate Whatever you're putting in you're probably saving up a long time be able to purchase one of something and so I think at 20 something years old putting almost all your eggs in one basket is going to be risky doesn't matter what that kind of basket is to a certain extent and Then like the other part that Matt's kind of mentioning is we've started getting very inflated real estate prices in Canada We've probably felt this more than other place in the world the idea that most people again their 20s aren't dreaming of

Soham Mehta (04:22.478)
purchase one of something. And so I think at 20 something years old, putting almost all your eggs in one basket is going to be risky. It doesn't matter what that kind of basket is to a certain extent. And then like the other part of that Matt's kind of mentioning is we've started getting very inflated real estate prices in Canada. We've probably felt this more than other places in the world. The idea that most people, again, their twenties aren't dreaming of owning a home. They're thinking about renting a home. And then that cost-benefit analysis you're going to do about, the property tax maintenance.

Matt (04:42.69)
Most people in their 20s aren't dreaming of owning a home.

George Pu (04:44.887)
owning a home, they're thinking about renting a home. And then that cost method analysis, you're going to do about all the property tax maintenance at like a million dollars for a very average house is kind of crazy. When I was a kid, a million dollar house seemed like you're going to buy a mansion. If that isn't really the case anymore. You're deviating from real estate being of utility value, and much more just of holding value. And if you want something that only has holding value, you can start looking at other things too. And like, again, Bitcoin is something we've mentioned on the

Matt (04:48.812)
analysis you're gonna do about all the property tax maintenance and like a million dollar for a very average house is kind of crazy when I was a kid a million dollar house seemed like you're gonna buy a mansion if that isn't really the case anymore you're deviating from real estate being of utility value and much more just of holding value and if you want something that only has holding value you can start looking at other things too and like again Bitcoin is something we've mentioned on the podcast quite a

Soham Mehta (04:52.182)
at like a million dollar for a very average house is kind of crazy. When I was a kid, a million dollar house seemed like you're going to buy a mansion. If that isn't really the case anymore, you're deviating from real estate being of utility value and much more just of holding value. And if you want something that only has holding value, you can start looking at other things too. like, again, Bitcoin is something we've mentioned on the podcast quite a few times, but it's a new asset class that's emerging as something that's showing like proof of holding value.

George Pu (05:14.787)
podcast quite a few times, but it's a new asset class that is emerging as something that's showing like proof of holding value. Right. If you have a net worth of a million dollars, your middle class, it used to be rich. Oh, I'm a millionaire. That doesn't mean anything anymore, you know? But I'm curious for you guys, like, you know, what, what is your asset allocation look like if you don't mind sharing and like, why, why did you choose that asset allocation? Maybe so on. Do you want to start? Yeah. So I have about, um, about maybe like 30,

Matt (05:16.292)
But it's a new asset class that's emerging as something that's showing like proof of holding value Right if you have a net worth of a million dollars your middle class It used to used to be rich. Oh, I'm a millionaire. That doesn't mean anything anymore, you know, but I'm curious for you guys like, know, what what is your asset allocation? Look like if you don't mind sharing and like why why did you choose that asset allocation? Maybe so I'm do you want certain? Yeah, so I have about about maybe like 30 40 percent

Soham Mehta (05:23.214)
If you have a net worth of a million dollars, you're middle class. It used to be rich. Oh, I'm a millionaire. That doesn't mean anything anymore. But I'm curious for you guys, what does your asset allocation look like if you don't mind sharing? And why? Why did you choose that asset allocation? mean so-and-so? Yeah, so I have about maybe like 30%, 40 % in equities. But again, the equities I own are treasury companies for Bitcoin. And then the rest of it is in actual Bitcoin.

George Pu (05:44.659)
40 % in equities but again the equities I own are treasured

Matt (05:46.213)
But again, the equities I own are treasury companies for Bitcoin and then the rest of it is an actual Bitcoin I think I'm almost exclusively in that because when I do the calculation and the risk I'm at a point where I don't want counterparty risk I don't want geopolitical risk the same amount and the one thing I do trust beyond it all is the idea of this 21 million is a denominator I like that idea. I like I think it's safe and so I think for me I'm more like a contrarian in many ways. So for me I have about 10 % of my

George Pu (05:48.723)
for Bitcoin and then the rest of it is an actual Bitcoin. I think I'm almost exclusively in that because when I do the calculation and the risk, I'm at a point where I don't want counterparty risk. I don't want geopolitical risk to the same amount. And the one thing I do trust beyond at all is the idea of this 21 million as a denominator. I like that idea. I think it's safe. so I think for me, I'm more like a contrarian in many ways. So for me, I have about 10 % of my like net worth probably like in Bitcoin.

Soham Mehta (05:52.174)
I think I'm almost exclusively in that because when I do the calculation and the risk, I'm at a point where I don't want counterparty risk. I don't want geopolitical risk to the same amount. And the one thing I do trust beyond it all is the idea of this 21 million as a denominator. I like that idea. think it's safe. so I think for me, I'm more like a contrarian in many ways. So for me, I have about 10 % of my network.

George Pu (06:18.643)
And other than that, honestly, I don't think I've honestly been investing anything. So I was investing in stocks a few months ago, but then it just became so volatile. And I realized that, okay, like I'm running a business, a startup, which is inherently very risky. Right? So do I want to put my capital in like risky asset classes as of this moment, like us stocks at this moment, right? I don't want to be scared every day when I'm checking the headlines or news. So at this moment, I'm not invested in us stocks. I'm 10 % net worth in Bitcoin.

Matt (06:18.932)
And other than that, honestly, don't think I've honestly been investing anything. So I was investing in stocks a few months ago, but then it became so volatile. And I realized that, okay, like I'm running a business, a startup, which is inherently very risky. Right. So do I want to put my capital?

Soham Mehta (06:19.082)
And other than that, honestly, don't think I've honestly been investing anything. So I was investing in stocks a few months ago, but then it just became so volatile. And I realized that, okay, like I'm running your business, a startup, which is inherently very risky. Right? So do I want to put my capital in like risky outside classes as of this moment that us stocks at this moment, I don't want to be scared every day when I'm checking the headlines for news. So at this moment, I'm not invested in us stocks.

Matt (06:35.588)
risky asset classes as of this moment like US stocks at this moment. I don't want to be scared every day when I'm checking the headlines or news. So at this moment, I'm not invested in US stocks. I'm 10 % net worth in Bitcoin because I do believe in the long term value of Bitcoin. I think I'm actually not worried about the volatility in Bitcoin at all for some reason, or maybe it's because it's so volatile. Wait, why aren't you worried about the volatility in Bitcoin? Oh, I'm not worried about the volatility.

George Pu (06:48.579)
Because I do believe in the long-term value of Bitcoin and I think I'm actually not worried about the volatility of Bitcoin at all for some reason. Or maybe it's because it's so volatile. Wait, why aren't you worried about the volatility of Bitcoin? Oh, I'm not worried about the volatility of Bitcoin because it's been volatile, right? Like I was in my first internship in 2018. I was working at a company that was building on top of Ethereum. And in 2018, know, the Bitcoin crash happened, which brought down almost every

Soham Mehta (06:53.794)
I'm actually not worried about the volatility of Bitcoin at all. For some reason. Or maybe just because it's so volatile. Wait, why are you worried about the volatility of Bitcoin? Oh, I'm not worried about the volatility of Bitcoin. Because it's been volatile. In my first internship in 2018, I was working at a company that was building on top of Ethereum. And in 2018, know, the Bitcoin...

Matt (07:04.804)
Because it's been volatile, right? Like I was in my first internship in 2018. I was working at a company that was building on top of Ethereum. And in 2018, you know, the Bitcoin crash happened, which brought down almost every other asset class. And it brought down to about $4,000. I'm not sure if I remember it correctly. And it almost feels like the end of Bitcoin.

George Pu (07:18.499)
asset class and it brought into about $4,000 I'm not sure if I remember it correctly and it almost feels like the end of Bitcoin the end of the cryptocurrency industry and my company was laying off you know so it became feel like it was the end and look at where we are today just a few years after it feels like it's a new asset class is replacing gold it's taking up so much in the ETF market so I get it like yes there's gonna be you volatility right but I think I

Matt (07:26.584)
the cryptocurrency industry and my company was laying off, know, so it all became feel like it was the end and look at where we are today. Just a few years after it feels like it's a new asset class is replacing gold. It's taking up so much in the ETF market. So I get it. Like, yes, there's going to be, you volatility, right? But I think I've been dollar costs averaging into Bitcoin a lot. So I have been also considering doing the same thing with other stocks, but at

Soham Mehta (07:39.113)
It's taking up so much in the ETF market

So I get it, like, yes, there's going to be volatility, right? But I think I've been dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin a lot. So I've been also considering doing the same thing with other stocks. But at this moment, I just don't think the stocks are that appealing to me at this moment, right? Maybe in a few months, I'm going to go back and say, okay, maybe dollar costing averaging into US stocks or international stocks. That makes sense. But at this moment, I'm just choosing to invest in something that's really simple.

George Pu (07:48.421)
been dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin a lot so I have been also considering doing the same thing with other stocks but at this moment I just don't think the stocks are that appealing to me at this moment right maybe in a few months I'm gonna go back and say okay maybe maybe dollar costing averaging into US stocks or Russian stocks but it makes sense but at this moment I'm just choosing to invest in something that's really simple that understand right and I have to say like in a few months ago I'm not really understanding Bitcoin

Matt (07:56.481)
this moment, I just don't think the stocks are that appealing to me at this moment, right? Maybe in a few months, I'm going to go back and say, okay, maybe, maybe dollar costing averaging into us stocks or national stocks might make sense. but at this moment, I'm just choosing to invest in something that's really simple.

Soham Mehta (08:13.166)
understand. I have to say a few months ago I'm not really understanding Bitcoin. I thought it was the same thing everyone else is saying. It's a store of wealth. It's like something that you can get rich on. But after understanding it, I feel like it changed my mind quite a lot. So that's kind of my experience. Yeah, it's funny you say like, you know, back then you were like, oh Bitcoin's dead. I feel like Bitcoin's died like a hundred times, know, every time it comes it bounces back. So basically for you,

Matt (08:13.284)
understand. Right. I have to say like in a few months ago, I'm not really understanding Bitcoin. I thought it was just like the same thing everyone else is saying. It's like a store of wealth. It's like, you know, it's like something that you can get rich on. But after understanding it, I feel like it changes my mind quite a lot. So that's kind of my experience. Yeah. It's funny. You say like, you know, back then you were like, Bitcoin's dead. I feel like Bitcoin's died like a hundred times, you know, and every time it comes, it bounces back. basically for you, the volatility is

George Pu (08:18.275)
I thought it was like the same thing everyone else is saying. It's like a store of golf. It's like, you know, it's like something that you can get rich on but after understanding it I feel like it changes my mind quite a lot. So that's kind of my experience Yeah, it's funny you you say like, you know back then you were like, oh Bitcoin's dead I feel like bitcoins died like a hundred times, you know, and every time it comes it bounces back so basically for you the volatility isn't a concern because You've seen it bounce back so many times. So, you know, even if Bitcoin goes

Soham Mehta (08:42.414)
The volatility isn't a concern because you've seen it bounce back so many times. So you know, even if Bitcoin goes down 50%, goes down 75 % that it's going to bounce back even higher. And that's what makes you feel a bit more comfortable. What was it that like actually, what was the thing that actually, you know, took you from, not really understanding Bitcoin to, where, where was the aha moment for you where you suddenly realized, Oh, like this is what Bitcoin is. Like this is the piece I was missing.

Matt (08:43.268)
the concern because you've seen it bounce back so many times. So you know, even if Bitcoin goes down 50%, it goes down 75 % that it's going to bounce back even higher. And that's what makes you feel a bit more comfortable. What was it that like actually, what was the thing that actually, you know, took you from, Hey, you're not really understanding Bitcoin to

George Pu (08:48.235)
down 50%, goes down 75 % that it's going to bounce back even higher and that's what makes you feel a bit more comfortable. What was the thing that actually took you from, hey, not really understanding Bitcoin to, where was the aha moment for you where you suddenly realized, this is what Bitcoin is. This is the piece I was missing before. I would say initially I was quite skeptical of the whole industry.

Matt (09:04.248)
Like where was the aha moment for you where you suddenly realized, like this is what Bitcoin is. Like this is the piece I was missing before. I would say initially I was quite.

Soham Mehta (09:12.078)
I would say initially I was quite skeptical of the whole industry, right? Just first coming into the industry in 2018, getting an eight month internship at a San Francisco startup that are doing something in Ethereum, basically, smart contracts, and being inherently questionable about, you know, the company I was working at. It's a great company, but I think I was really not understanding what is the value of a product because we see so much higher drop off at the time.

Matt (09:13.508)
skeptical of the whole industry, right? Just first coming into the industry in 2018, getting an eight month internship in a San Francisco startup that are doing something in Ethereum, basically smart contracts and being inherently questionable about, you know, the company I was working at. It's great company, but I think I was really not understanding what is the value of the product because we see so much higher drop off at the time. So coming back, I just became very skeptical.

George Pu (09:16.097)
first coming to the industry in 2018, getting an eight-month internship in a San Francisco startup that are doing something in Ethereum, basically, smart contracts, and being inherently questionable about the company I was working at.

It's great company, but I think I was really not understanding what is the value of the product because we see so much higher drop off at the time. So coming back, I just became very skeptical of this asset in general. was like, okay, is it just a speculative asset that goes up and down? Right. And I'm sure today people still think about that way. It's like an asset that just skyrockets to 150,000 or something and tomorrow it can be 20,000. So I think most people right now who are not touching Bitcoin probably is afraid of that. And for me, I think.

Soham Mehta (09:40.462)
So coming back, I just became very skeptical of this asset in general. was like, okay, is it just a speculative asset that goes up and down? Right. And I'm sure today people still think of it that way. It's like an asset that just skywalks to $150 or something and tomorrow it can be $20. So I think most people right now who are not touching Bitcoin probably is afraid of that. And for me, I think at a long time I was looking at Bitcoin in terms of the dollar value of it. I wasn't looking at something else of it.

Matt (09:43.415)
of this asset in general. was like, okay, is it just a speculative asset that goes up and down, right? And I'm sure today people still think about that way. It's like an asset that just skyrockets to 150,000 or something and tomorrow it can be 20,000. So I think most people right now who are not touching Bitcoin probably is afraid of that. And for me, I think at a long time I was looking at Bitcoin in terms of the dollar value.

George Pu (10:01.891)
think at a long time I was looking at Bitcoin in terms of the dollar value of it. I wasn't looking at something else of it. So personally I think the aha moment for me was just understanding a little bit on the technical side, understanding that it is a finite thing. So I was looking at a bit a little bit more than gold, right? Because technically gold is supposed to be finite. So Bitcoin is basically a digital version of that. And also like having community. think looking more into that, I watched a few videos and I realized that okay it is really valuable.

Matt (10:06.756)
of it. wasn't looking at something else of it. So personally, I think the hard moment for me was just understanding a little bit on the technical side, understanding that it is a finite thing. So I was looking at a bit, a little bit more than gold, right? Because technically gold is supposed to be finite. So Bitcoin is basically a digital version of that. And also like having community, think looking more into that, I watched a few videos and I realized that, okay, it is really valuable.

Soham Mehta (10:09.742)
So personally, think the problem for me was just understanding a little bit on the technical side, understanding that it is a finite thing. So I was looking at a bit a little bit more than gold, right? Because technically gold is supposed to be finite. So Bitcoin is basically a digital version of that. And also like having community, I think looking more into that, I watched a few videos and I realized that, okay, it is really valuable. Obviously, so it is something I'm believing in long term because in my thing, it's about building a startup. It's about long-term thinking, long-term strategy.

Matt (10:31.78)
It is something I'm believing in long term because in my thing is about you know building a startup It's about long-term thinking long-term strategy, so that was it for me. Yeah, so I'm curious I'm curious about your story because I know you come from traditional finance, so you must be really Knowledgeable about like the stocks bonds ETFs so so what do you think about allocations? Like do you like you know because I heard some people are saying put 10 % of your Holdings into Bitcoin for example because that's you know that's safe

George Pu (10:31.811)
It is something I'm believing in long term because in my thing it's about building a startup. It's about long term thinking, long term strategy. So that was it for me. Yeah. So I'm curious about your story because I know you come from traditional finance. So you must be really knowledgeable about like the stocks, bonds, ETFs. So what do you think about allocations? do you, like, you know, because I've heard some people are saying, oh, put 10 % of your holdings into Bitcoin, for example, because that's, you know, that's safe.

Soham Mehta (10:39.118)
So that was it for me. Yeah. So I'm curious. I'm curious about your story because I know you come from traditional finance. So you must be really knowledgeable about stocks, bonds, ETFs. what do you think about allocations? Like do you like, you know, because I've heard some people are saying, oh, put 10 % of your holdings into Bitcoin, for example, because that's, you know, that's safe, right? And you're not putting too much risk. So what are your thoughts about this?

George Pu (11:01.731)
right? And you're not putting too much risk. So what are your thoughts about this type of investing? So I'll repeat one thing I think George said a little bit early about the idea that Bitcoin is volatile. I actually don't think it's volatile because I think the idea is on every halving cycle it's been on, it's always been higher up. And so at the moment you think at least it's four years, whatever money, like I think Matt was mentioning, whatever money you're putting in, you're going to hold it for at least four years. We've never seen a downturn in Bitcoin because it introduces mathematical scarcity at every halving essentially, right? So

Matt (11:01.874)
Right and you're not putting too much risk. So what are your thoughts about this time? So I'll repeat one thing I think Georgia said a little bit early about the idea that bitcoins fall I actually don't think it's volatile it because I think the idea is on every having cycle It's been on it's always been higher up And so at the moment you think at least it's four years whatever money like I think Matt was mentioned Whatever money you're putting in you're gonna hold it for at least four years We've never seen a downturn in Bitcoin because it introduces mathematical scarcity at every

Soham Mehta (11:06.286)
So I'll repeat one thing I think Georgia said a little bit earlier about the idea that Bitcoin is volatile. I actually don't think it's volatile because I think the idea is on every halving cycle it's been on, it's always been higher up. And so at the moment you think at least it's four years, whatever money, like I think Matt was mentioning, whatever money you're putting in, you're going to hold it for at least four years. We've never seen a downturn in Bitcoin because it introduces mathematical scarcity at every halving essentially, right? So overall I've

Matt (11:30.966)
Essentially, right? So overall I when I started looking into Bitcoin I didn't think it was volatile once I knew that I was gonna put this money in for long

George Pu (11:31.603)
So overall, when I started looking into Bitcoin, I didn't think it was volatile once I knew that I was going to put this money in for long term, kind of the way you're mentioning, George. But what really got my gears turning was when Silicon Valley Bank was going under. The idea was that, you you have a top 15 bank, the size of it is huge, and they can just like not give depositors money anymore. And then at that point, you start thinking, okay, which bank can I really trust? And I can only trust the JP Morgan's.

Soham Mehta (11:33.78)
When I started looking into Bitcoin, I didn't think it was volatile once I knew that I was going to put this money in for long term, kind of the way you're mentioning, George. But what really got my gears turning was when Silicon Valley Bank was going under. The idea was that, you you have a top 15 bank, the size of it is huge, and they can just like not give depositors money anymore. And then at that point, you start thinking, OK, which bank can I really trust? And I can only trust the JP Morgan's.

Matt (11:40.995)
But what really got my gears turning was when Silicon Valley Bank was going under. The idea was that, you you have a top 15 bank, the size of it is huge, and they can just like not give depositors money anymore. And then at that point, you start thinking, okay, which bank can I really trust? And I can only trust the JP Morgan's. I think Canada were a little bit more benefited in the idea that our bank's a little bit high.

Soham Mehta (12:01.454)
I think Canada were a little bit more benefited in the idea that like our banks are a little bit higher regulated. And so we don't have as much of a risk on that. Well, like we're only a hundred thousand is insured, right? It only takes a, you know, one mess up and how much inflation is occurring per year, right? Hasn't the US dollar inflated 9 % since, you know, year to date, right? Like since the beginning of the year. So it's like, yeah, like you're safe to a certain extent, but then as you inflate more and more, the amount that's actually even insured in the bank.

George Pu (12:01.507)
were a little bit more benefited in the idea that our banks are a little bit higher regulated and so we don't have as much of a risk on that. Well, like, well, only a hundred thousand is insured, right? It only takes one mess up and how much inflation is occurring per year, right? Hasn't the US dollar inflated 9 % since, you year to date, right? Like, since the beginning of the year. So it's like, yeah, like you're safe to a certain extent, but then as you inflate more and more, the amount that's actually even insured in the bank becomes less and less.

Matt (12:06.628)
And so we don't have as much of a risk on that. Well, like, well, only 100,000 is insured, right? It only takes a, you know, one mess up. And how much inflation is occurring per year, right? Hasn't hasn't the US dollar inflated 9 % since, you know, year to date, right? Like since the beginning of the year. So it's like, yeah, like you're safe to a certain extent. But then as you inflate more and more, the amount that's actually even insured in the bank becomes less and less. So, yeah, I think we're insulated in Canada bit more because there's only a couple banks

Soham Mehta (12:30.83)
becomes less and less. So yeah, I think we're insulated in Canada bit more because there's only a couple of banks so they can kind of keep things under check. You don't have contagion that occurs from Silicon Valley Bank going down in a bunch of others, but it still seems like risky, I guess. Like, I don't know, I guess like from my perspective, like when I look at it, I think of Fiat, know, the Canadian dollar, the US dollar, you know, it's basically a get-poor-slowly mechanism.

George Pu (12:31.507)
So, yeah, I think we're insulated in Canada bit more because there's only a couple banks so they can kind of, you know, keep things on their check. You don't have contagion that occurs from Silicon Valley Bank going down in a bunch of others, but it still seems like risky, I guess. Like, I don't know, I guess like from my perspective, like when I look at it, I think of fiat, you know, the Canadian dollar, the US dollar.

Matt (12:36.582)
so they can kind of keep things on their check. You don't have contagion that occurs from Silicon Valley Bank going down and a bunch of others, but it still seems like risky, I guess. I don't know, I guess from my perspective, when I look at it, I think of fiat, the Canadian dollar, the US dollar.

George Pu (12:55.433)
You know, it's basically a get poor slowly mechanism versus like, you know, Bitcoin like, yeah, there's volatility in any like one year to next, but it's also like volatility compared to what? Volatility compared to the US dollar or Canadian dollar. Like you're right. It is like absolute scarcity that's built into it. It's the only thing that actually has that's even more scarce than gold, right? Eventually we will go mine asteroids, you know? So,

Matt (12:55.66)
You know, it's basically a get poor slowly mechanism versus like, you know, Bitcoin like, yeah, there's volatility in any like one year to next, but it's also like volatility compared to what? Volatility compared to the US dollar or Canadian dollar. Like you're right. It is like absolute scarcity that's built into it. It's the only thing that actually has that's even more scarce than gold, right? Eventually we will go mine asteroids, you know? So,

Soham Mehta (12:59.202)
versus like Bitcoin, like yeah, there's volatility in any like one year to next, but it's also like volatility compared to what? Volatility compared to the US dollar or Canadian dollar. you're right, it is like absolute scarcity that's built into it. It's the only thing that actually has that even more scarcity goal, right? Eventually we will go mine astro coins, you know? So yeah, that's fascinating. So for you, like where was your aha moment for Bitcoin?

George Pu (13:21.217)
Yeah, that's that's fascinating. So so for you, you like where was your aha moment for Bitcoin? Yeah, I think it was a moment I stopped looking at Bitcoin as Bitcoin, our cryptocurrency and started looking at as a monetary policy. And if you come in from the Austrian economics like point beyond how

Matt (13:21.464)
Yeah, that's fascinating. So for you, where was your aha moment for Bitcoin? Yeah, I think it was the moment I stopped looking at Bitcoin as Bitcoin, I wanted cryptocurrency, and I started looking at it monetary policy. And if you come in from the Austrian economics point of view on how an economy should be run, the idea is having something that, like you mentioned, finance fiercely, that's even important to me, that's predictable. I know what that number is, then I don't care what that number is.

Soham Mehta (13:27.714)
I think it was a moment I stopped looking at Bitcoin as Bitcoin or like cryptocurrency and I started looking at it as a monetary policy. And if you come at it from just like the Austrian economics, like point of view on how an economy should be run, the idea is having something that like you mentioned, it's like finite scarcity that seemed important to me, that's predictable. I know what that number is, then I don't care what that number is. And then the next moment is this idea of like that constant having. I think that makes sense on a-

George Pu (13:39.169)
An economy should be run. The idea is having something that like you mentioned, finite scarcity. That's even important to me. That's predictable. I know what that number is. Then I don't care what that number is. And the next moment is this idea of like that constant having. I think that makes sense. And then on top of all that, the reason why we have banks, banks have evolved is for security. because of that security, what's happening is banks and then like the central government kind of were able to become like one.

Matt (13:50.681)
And then the next moment is this idea of like that constant having, I think that makes sense on a, and then on top of all of that, the reason why we have banks, banks have evolved is for security and the, and because of that security, what's in the happening is banks and then like the central government kind of.

Soham Mehta (13:57.094)
And then on top of all of that, the reason why we have banks, banks have evolved is for security. because of that security, what's ended up happening is banks and then like the central government kind of were able to become like one and two of the same to some extent, right? Versus now with Bitcoin, you have that security built in through incentives. Miners will keep the hashrate going higher and higher as long as they get paid with like the block rewards. And so it just seemed like a flywheel effect where each part of Bitcoin

George Pu (14:09.183)
and do the same to certain extent, right? Versus now with Bitcoin, you have the security built in through incentives. Miners will keep the hashrate going higher and higher as long as they get paid with like the block rewards. And so it just seemed like a flywheel effect where each part of Bitcoin helps strengthen the other parts of it more and more. And I couldn't find a reason why there was something wrong with it outside of just pessimism in the market itself. Yeah, you were basically like, I can't figure out

Matt (14:10.016)
same to some extent right versus now with Bitcoin you have that security built in through incentives miners will keep the hashrate going higher and higher as long as they get paid with like the block rewards and so it just seemed like a flywheel effect where each part of Bitcoin helps strengthen the other parts of it more and more and I couldn't find a reason why there was something wrong with

Soham Mehta (14:25.72)
helps strengthen the other parts of it more and more. And I couldn't find a reason why there was something wrong with it outside of just pessimism in the market itself. Yeah, you were basically like, I can't figure out a way to break Bitcoin from a monetary perspective. Basically, like you were like a you're like an economic hacker, basically, like, how how is the system going to break? Exactly. Which is like exactly what the early computer scientists I thought of Bitcoin.

Matt (14:32.356)
outside of just pessimism in the market itself. Yeah, you were basically like, I can't figure out a way to break Bitcoin from a monetary perspective, basically. You were like an economic hacker, basically. Like, how is this system going to break? Which is exactly what the early computer scientists that got into Bitcoin, like Cal Finney back in the day, the reason they got excited about it, because they were like, how do I break this? From a technical perspective. But you were thinking, how do I break this from a monetary perspective?

George Pu (14:39.043)
a way to break Bitcoin from a monetary perspective basically. Like you were like an economic hacker basically, like, how is this system gonna break, right? Which is like exactly what the early computer scientists that got into Bitcoin, like Cal Finney back in the day, you know, the reason they got excited about it, because they were like, how do I break this, right? From a technical perspective. But you were thinking, how do I break this from a monetary perspective, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And I think our audiences might also be asking the question about inflation, right? Because we're just

Soham Mehta (14:52.718)
how many back in the day, know, the reason they got excited about it because they're like, Oh, how do I break this right from a technical perspective? You're thinking how do I break this from a monetary perspective, is pretty cool. Yeah. think our audience is also be asking the question about inflation because we're just a few years out of COVID during COVID inflation was sky high post COVID inflation still sky high, which is slightly lower. So young investors probably have never experienced such a high inflation environment. Right.

Matt (15:02.31)
which is pretty cool. Yeah. I think our audiences might also be asking the question about inflation, right? Because we're just a few years out of COVID. During COVID, inflation was sky high. Post COVID, inflation is still sky high, which is slightly lower. So young investors probably have never experienced such a high inflation environment, right? So Madagascar, starting with you. So for some of us looking to beat inflation,

George Pu (15:08.963)
few years out of During COVID, inflation was sky high. Post COVID, inflation is still sky high, which is slightly lower. So young investors probably have never experienced such a high inflation environment, right? So Madagascar, starting with you. So for someone who's looking to beat inflation, we just recommend Bitcoin as the inflation-proof asset. And are there anything else that you would recommend? You should just hold dollars and let your money go to zero, you know?

Soham Mehta (15:22.126)
So Madagascar, starting with you, so for some of us looking to beat inflation, we just still recommend Bitcoin as the inflation-proof asset. are there anything else that you would do? You should just hold dollars and let your money go to zero, you know? No, I'm kidding. I mean, I would say Bitcoin is like the thing that is, you know...

Matt (15:27.746)
just still recommend Bitcoin as the inflation proof asset and are there anything else that you would recommend? should just you know fold dollars and let your money go to zero you know. No I'm kidding. I mean I already said like Bitcoin is like the thing that is you know.

George Pu (15:38.835)
I'm kidding. I mean, I already said Bitcoin is like the thing that is, you know...

absolute scarcity, right? Like you should be looking at your net worth in terms of like how many Bitcoin you have divided by 21 million, right? It's pretty simple. So like, I think it is like a good hedge for you being able to beat inflation. Cause think about inflation too, is you don't even know what the real inflation numbers is because what do you compare it against, right? We compare, you know, the Canadian dollar against the U S dollar, the Euro against the U S dollar or

Matt (15:45.989)
Absolute scarcity right like you should be looking at your net worth in terms of like how many Bitcoin you have divided by 21 million right? It's pretty simple So like I think it is like a good hedge for you being able to beat inflation because think about inflation too is you don't even know what the real inflation numbers is because what do you compare it against right we compare you know the Canadian dollar against the US dollar the euro against the US dollar or They compare against the basket of goods and they keep changing the basket of goods that they're comparing and so there is no you

Soham Mehta (15:46.07)
absolute scarcity, right? Like you should be looking at your net worth in terms of like how many Bitcoin you have divided by 21 million, right? It's pretty simple. So like, I think it is like a good hedge for you being able to beat inflation. Cause think about inflation too, is you don't even know what the real inflation numbers is because what do you compare it against? Right? We compare, you know, the Canadian dollar has the U S dollar, the Euro against the U S dollar, or they compare against the basket of goods and they keep changing the basket of goods that they're comparing. And so there is no,

George Pu (16:08.929)
they compare against the basket of goods and they keep changing the basket of goods that they're comparing. And so there is no non inflationary number that doesn't exist. One day that's going to be Bitcoin. Everyone's going to compare inflation that's occurring on whatever thing to Bitcoin itself. And I think just in general, like it's kind of the perfect hedge against against the system. So yeah, yeah. your get your. I know you're thinking about.

Soham Mehta (16:15.758)
Non inflationary number that doesn't exist one day. That's to be everyone's going to compare inflation That's occurring on whatever thing to Bitcoin itself and I think just in general like it's kind of the perfect hedge against against the system. So Yeah, I Know you're thinking about like also like you're in the financial world. I'm sure you've seen sky-high equation Yeah, some people are saying like just by the S &P

Matt (16:15.972)
non-inflationary number that doesn't exist one day that's going to be Bitcoin everyone's going to compare inflation that's occurring on whatever thing to Bitcoin itself and I think just in general like it's kind of the perfect hedge against against the system so yeah yeah get your get your account going I know I know you're thinking about like also like you're in the financial world I'm sure you've seen the sky-high inflation yeah

George Pu (16:37.048)
Also, you're in the financial world, I'm sure you've seen the sky-high inflation. And some people are saying, just buy the S &P, which I still think it's a valid recommendation. Just buy the S &P because it's been at 7 % annually. What do you think about that advice in general? I'll say two things. think one, coming back to inflation on a high level, think build and feed,

Matt (16:41.508)
Some people are saying like just buy the SMP, which I still think it's a valid like recommendation just buy the SMP because it's been at 7 % annually. What do you think about that advice in general? I'll say two things. think one coming back to like inflation on a high level.

Soham Mehta (16:45.902)
It's a valid recommendation. buy the S &P because it's been at 7 % annually. What do you think about that advice? I'll say two things. think one coming back to inflation on a high level. think Milton Friedman had a good joke. It's what to do during high inflation environments. You just say spend it, spend all of your money. I think that's better advice than someone will give credit to. But on the S &P point, I think what's important that people should really understand is

George Pu (16:59.041)
It's what to do during high inflation environments. You just say spend it spend all of your money. I think that's better advice than someone will give credit to but on the S &P point I think what's important that people should really understand is the returns we see in the S &P they're on a nominal basis, which means they're not inflation adjusted. That's seven percent of the S &P is going up. If my money printer has printed five percent more currency, my technical return is two percent.

Matt (16:59.3)
what to do during high inflation environments you just say spend it spend all of your money and I think that's better advice than someone will get credit to but on the S &P point I think what's important that people should

Is the returns we see in the S &P they're on a nominal basis, which means they're not inflation-adjusted That's seven percent that the S &P is going up if my money printer has printed five percent more currency My technical return is two percent. There's just so much more money out there that Part of the reason that the S &P is going up seven percent is because more of that money found its way

Soham Mehta (17:14.978)
The returns we see in the S &P, they're on a nominal basis, which means they're not inflation adjusted. That's 7 % that the S &P is going up. If my money printer has printed 5 % more currency, my technical return is 2%. There's just so much more money out there that part of the reason that the S &P is going up 7 % is because more of that money found its way into that. And so then when you start looking at like returns from like the equities on a real basis,

George Pu (17:28.995)
There's just so much more money out there that Part of the reason that the SMP is going up 7 % is because more of that money found its way into that and so then when you start looking at like returns from like the equities on a real basis you realize that the risk reward is actually a lot higher on the risk side than the reward that you're actually getting I think that should be like a good case for like people just to look into is like hey How much like what Matt was mentioning at the M2 supply has gone up 9 % this year if that's true How much is the SMT gone?

Matt (17:37.571)
And so then when you start looking at like returns from like the equities on a real basis, you realize that the risk reward is actually a lot higher on the risk side than the reward that you're actually getting. I think that should be like a good case for like people just to look into is like, Hey, how much like what Matt was mentioning at the M2 supplies got 9 % this year. If that's true, how much has the S &P gone up this year? And then when you compare the two of them, if they're about the same or if they're even next

Soham Mehta (17:43.31)
you realize that the risk reward is actually a lot higher on the risk side than the reward that you're actually getting. I think that should be like a good case for like people just to look into is like, Hey, how much like what Matt was mentioning at the M2 supply has gone up 9 % this year. If that's true, how much has the S &P gone up this year? And then when you compare the two of them, if they're about the same or if they're even negative, that would be a big teller. Maybe this isn't the right asset class to put as much value of mine into. I'm curious for you, George, like

George Pu (17:58.937)
up this year and then when you compare the two of them if they're about the same or if they're even negative that would be a big teller maybe this isn't the right asset class to put as much value of mine into. I'm curious for you George like you've got a company right you're probably thinking about for your company how do I protect the cash that we have in the bank how are you thinking about like protecting against inflation? Yeah I was and actually is still a customer of the Silicon Valley Bank I just talked about.

Matt (18:05.956)
This isn't the right asset class to put as much value of mine into. I'm curious for you, George, like you've got a company, right? You're probably thinking about for your company, how do I protect the cash that we have in the bank? How are you thinking about like protecting against inflation? Yeah, I was and actually is still a customer of the Silicon Valley Bank that we just talked about, which is the funniest thing. So yeah, I was there when it imploded. it was like definitely a lot of thoughts about that.

Soham Mehta (18:12.718)
You've got a company, right? You're probably thinking about for your company, how do I protect the cash that we have in the bank? How are you thinking about like protecting against inflation? Yeah, I was, I was and actually is still a customer of the Silicon Valley bank. just talked about was the funniest thing. yeah, I was there when it included. So it's like, definitely a lot of thoughts about that. That's scary. It's scary. It's scary. I think today it's more about like thinking about, what can cash do for you?

George Pu (18:28.771)
That's scary.

Matt (18:36.3)
That's scary. It's scary. It's scary. think today it's more about like thinking about, what can cash do for you? Right. And also it's about thinking about taxation on top of the cash that you have. Basically whatever you do get out of it, the taxation is going to be a big part of the story. Right. So for us right now, we're buying, we're buying a lot of GICs, right. Which is guarantee investment trust, which for the instance in the U S is basically like,

Soham Mehta (18:42.958)
is about thinking about taxation on top of the cash that you have. Basically, whatever you do get out of it, the taxation is going to be a big part of the story, right? So for us right now, we're buying a lot of GSEs, right? We just guarantee investment trust, which for the business in the US is basically like a guaranteed bond, US treasury sort of. So we're buying a lot of that. But personally, on the deeper side, I'm really just unhappy with that decision. And I think I'm just debating a lot of

George Pu (18:58.691)
which for this instance in US is basically like a guaranteed bond, US treasury sort of. So we're buying a lot of that, but personally on the deeper side, I'm really just unhappy with that decision. And I think I'm just debating a lot about, I really don't want that to do that. Right. So I was thinking about, you know, potentially using corporate cash to buy some Bitcoin, but that can be controversial, you know, in the traditional SaaS world, you know, where people are just scrutinizing, oh, are you buying Bitcoin? We can reinvest into a company. So it's really like a debate about,

Matt (19:01.604)
guaranteed bond, US treasury sort of. So we're buying a lot of that, but personally on the deeper side, I'm really just unhappy with that decision. And I think I'm just debating a lot about, really don't want that to do that. Right? So I was thinking about, you know, potentially using corporate cash to buy some Bitcoin, but that can be controversial, you know, in the traditional SaaS world, you know, where people are just scrutinizing, oh, we can reinvest into a company. So it's really like a debate about like what to do with that extra cash.

Soham Mehta (19:12.14)
I really don't want that to do that. So I was thinking about, you know, potentially using corporate cash to buy some Bitcoin, but that can be controversial, you know, in the traditional SaaS world, you know, where people are discriminating, maybe I can reinvest into a company. So it's really like a debate about like what to do with that extra cash. Well, I feel like there's more and more companies that are looking at like, hey, like putting a small amount of their treasury, like basically having a Bitcoin treasury. Like I know, Tahini's for example, they're a perfect-

George Pu (19:28.611)
What to do with that extra cash? Well, I feel like there's more and more companies that are looking at like, hey, like putting a small amount of their treasury, like basically having a Bitcoin treasury. Like I know Tahini's, for example, they're a perfect example. They're a Schwarm a shop, you know, here in Ontario and they put a small, you know, allocation of their capital into Bitcoin. And I think they kept increasing it. Like they would earn money in dollars, know, in Canadian dollars. And then they would go and put that into Bitcoin. And that grew so much over the years that they were able to, you know, franchise their local

Matt (19:31.555)
Hmm. Well, I feel like there's more and more companies that are looking at like hey like putting a small amount of their treasury like basically having a Bitcoin treasury like I know Tahini's for example, they're a perfect example. They're a shawarma shop, you know here in Ontario and they put a small, you know allocation of their capital into Bitcoin and I think they kept increasing it like they would earn money in doll You know in Canadian dollars and then they would go and put that into Bitcoin and that grew so much over the years that they are able to you know franchise their location and expand to a significant number of

Soham Mehta (19:41.806)
example, there's a shawarma shop here in Ontario and they put a small allocation of their capital into Bitcoin and I think they kept increasing it. They would earn money in Canadian dollars and then they would go and put that into Bitcoin and that grew so much over the years that they were able to franchise their location and expand to a significant number of locations across the province. But I think the other thing too is like how much are you making in the GIC? Like 5 %? Not even this year I think it's 3%.

George Pu (19:58.483)
and expand to a significant number of locations across the province but I think the other thing too is like how much are you making in the GIC like like 5 %? Not even this year I think it's 3.5 Oh my gosh! How long is the lockup for the GIC? Some of them is one year some of them is six months I think it's reached like a short-term decision

Matt (20:01.478)
across the province but I think the other thing too is like how much are you making in the GIC like like 5 %? Not even this year I think it's 3.5 Oh my gosh! How is the lock up for the GIC? Some of them is one year some of them is six months I think it's reached like a short-term solution

Soham Mehta (20:10.764)
my gosh. How long does the lockup for the GIC? Some of them is one year. Some of them is six months. I think it's reached like a short-term. It's reached short-term. Wow. should look into the basis straight. So what's interesting in like the Bitcoin markets is that you have futures markets that exist, right? And typically the longs pay the shorts, right? So typically the

George Pu (20:20.147)
It's very short term. You should look into the basis trade. So what's interesting in like the Bitcoin markets is that you have futures markets that exist, right? And typically the longs pay the shorts, right? So typically the fixed stated futures, the futures actually trade at a premium. And what you can do is you can actually short that.

Matt (20:20.364)
It's very short term. should look into the basis trade. So what's interesting in like the Bitcoin markets is that you have futures markets that exist, right? And typically the longs pay the shorts, right? So typically the fixed stated futures, the futures actually trade at a premium. And what you can do is you can actually short that.

Soham Mehta (20:39.726)
fixed-dated futures, the futures actually trade at a premium and what you can do is you can actually short that using where the underlying is Bitcoin itself, which means you're basically just exposed to US dollars but you basically capture that spread on the premium that exists. as an example, I was just looking at it today, you could be making 7.4 % APR in US dollars basically.

George Pu (20:47.777)
using where the underlying is Bitcoin itself, right? Which means you're basically just exposed to US dollars, but you basically capture that spread on the premium that exists. So like, as an example, like I was just looking at it today, like you can be making like 7.4 % APR in US dollars basically by just locking in that spread in essence. So like, geez, like making only three...

Matt (20:48.004)
Using where the underlying is Bitcoin itself, right? Which means you're basically just exposed to US dollars But you you basically capture that spread on the on the premium that exists So like as an example, like I was just looking at it today like you can be making like 7.4 percent APR

In US dollars basically by just locking in that that spread in essence So like geez like making only three three point five percent in the GIC like man You can be making seven point four and I've seen it as high as like ten percent or eleven percent that you could be making like per year from this That's you know, essentially risk-free

Soham Mehta (21:08.91)
by just locking in that spread in essence. like, geez, like making only 3.5 % in the GIC, like, oh, you can be making 7.4. And I've seen it as high as like 10 % or 11 % that you could be making like per year from this. That's essentially risk-free. I agree. I agree. 3.5 % is definitely pathetic. So that's something I think about at night. Yeah. Matt, what about your company? Like, I'm sure you guys have some treasury.

George Pu (21:14.465)
3.5 % in the GIC, like, oh man, you could be making 7.4. And I've seen it as high as like 10 % or 11 % that you could be making like per year from this. That's, you know, essentially risk-free. I agree. I agree. 3.5 % is definitely pathetic. So that's something I think about at night. Yeah. And Matt, what about your company? Like, I'm sure you guys have some treasury management system in place. Just to maybe share a little bit. Yeah, I think...

Matt (21:34.373)
I'm sure you guys have some treasury management system in place, just to maybe share a little bit. Yeah, I think 90 % of our treasury is in Bitcoin, but it didn't start out that way, right? Here's what happens to people is like...

Soham Mehta (21:36.398)
management system in place, just maybe share a little bit. Yeah, I think 90 % of our treasuries in Bitcoin, but it didn't start out that way, right? Like here's what happens to people is like, you you start off putting out a small allocation and like we needed it for like some things like related to our product. So we started out, you know, with 5%, 10 % in Bitcoin. And what happens is that, know, that Bitcoin starts growing over

George Pu (21:43.157)
think 90 % of our treasuries in Bitcoin, but it didn't start out that way. Right? Like here's what happens to people is like, you know, you start off putting out a small allocation and, and, like we needed it for like,

Matt (21:51.653)
You you start off putting out a small allocation and we needed it for some things related to our product. So we started out with 5%, 10 % in Bitcoin. And what happens is that Bitcoin starts growing over time and then you add a little bit more and obviously the value of your cash is going down and the value of Bitcoin keeps going up. So it's not like we just came in from day one and said, hey, we're going to put 90 % of our cash into Bitcoin. It's like, oh, you start out with 10 % and then at a certain

George Pu (21:57.057)
some things like related to our product. So we started out with 5%, 10 % in Bitcoin. And what happens is that Bitcoin starts growing over time and then you add a little bit more and obviously the value of your cash is going down. The value of Bitcoin keeps going up. So it's not like we just came in from day one and said, hey, we're going to put 90 % of our cash into Bitcoin. It's like, oh, you start out with 10 % and then at a certain point you ended up with it being 90%. And so for us, I think

Soham Mehta (22:06.542)
you've had a little bit more and you're obviously you're the value of the cash is like you know going down the value of Bitcoin keeps going up so it's not like we just came in from day one and said hey we're gonna put 90 % of our cash you know into Bitcoin it's like oh you start out with 10 % and then at a certain point you ended up with it being 90 % and so for us like you know I think it only makes sense to have like a good and solid allocation now

Matt (22:21.726)
point you ended up with it being 90 percent. And so for us, you know, I think it only makes sense to have like a good and solid allocation. Now, you know, does it make sense all the time? No, because there's cycles in Bitcoin, right? There's the bull cycles and there's the bear cycles. And so what's great about it is that, well, during the bull cycles, you can take advantage of having like a certain percentage of your treasury in Bitcoin. And then as the bear is occurring, you can go in and lock in that basis trade. And now you're making that, you know, five, seven point five

George Pu (22:27.011)
it only makes sense to have like a good and solid allocation. you know, does it make sense all the time? No, because there's cycles in Bitcoin, right? There's the bull cycles and there's the bear cycles. And so what's great about it is that, well, during the bull cycles, you can take advantage of having like a certain percentage of your treasury in Bitcoin. And then as the bear is occurring, you can go in and lock in that basis trade. And now you're making that, you know, five, 7.5, 10 % in USD.

Soham Mehta (22:31.47)
you does it make sense all the time? No, because there's cycles in Bitcoin, right? There's the bull cycles and there's the bear cycles. And so what's great about it is that, well, during the bull cycles, you can take advantage of having like a certain percentage of your treasury in Bitcoin. And then as the bear is occurring, you can go in and lock in that basis trade. And now you're making that, you know, five, 7.5, 10 % in USD. And when you actually exit the trade, it just goes directly to Bitcoin again.

Matt (22:51.526)
10 % in USD. And when you actually exit the trade, it just goes directly to Bitcoin again. So it's kind of the perfect cycle to be able to, and perfect treasury management solution for us. Yeah. And so I'm just on the ending this conversation, like in five, 10 years, do you see yourself holding more Bitcoin? Do you see yourself holding more ETFs? Do you see yourself holding more bonds? Like where do you see yourself?

George Pu (22:53.985)
And when you actually exit the trade it just goes directly to Bitcoin again So it's kind of the perfect, you know cycle to be able to and perfect Treasury management solution for you know for us Yeah, and so understand that ending this conversation is like in five ten years. Do you see yourself? Holding more Bitcoin. Do you see yourself holding more ETS? Do you see yourself holding more bonds? Like where do you see yourself? Yeah, I think I bonds are hard to

Soham Mehta (22:58.414)
So it's kind of the perfect cycle to be able to and perfect treasury management solution for us. And so I'm just wondering, ending this conversation, in five, 10 years, do you see yourself holding more Bitcoin? Do you see yourself holding more ETFs? Do you see yourself holding more bonds? Where do you see yourself? I think bonds are hard to own. It feels like the risk reward just really isn't there in today's point of view.

Matt (23:18.722)
I think bonds are hard to own. It feels like the risk rewards really isn't there in today's point of view. ETFs are curious because as much as I say bonds are becoming kind of bad, a lot of convertible bond ETFs are starting to come out for Bitcoin. I think those are interesting plays because as you want to get away from the idea of like having your risk in Bitcoin on a daily basis because you need capital for like...

George Pu (23:21.409)
It feels like the risk reward just really isn't there in today's point of view ETFs are curious because as much as I say bonds are becoming kind of bad is a lot of convertible bond ETFs are starting to come out for Bitcoin I think those are interesting place because as you want to get away from the idea of like Having your risk in Bitcoin on a daily basis because you need capital for like daily life These are convertible bonds that kind of get converted into the Bitcoin are pretty interesting

Soham Mehta (23:26.442)
ETFs are curious because as much as I say bonds are becoming kind of bad is a lot of convertible bond ETFs are starting to come out for Bitcoin. I think those are interesting plays because as you want to get away from the idea of like having your risk in Bitcoin on a daily basis because you need capital for like daily life. These are convertible bonds that kind of get converted into the Bitcoin.

Matt (23:46.776)
These are convertible bonds that kind of get converted.

are pretty interesting because that way your cash stays at the exact same value throughout the process, right? So like you don't really have as much of a bear market as you would by holding the actual Bitcoin. So I think as you go from a wealth growth mindset to like a wealth preservation mindset, I would start like shifting away from just pure Bitcoin. But I still think throughout all of it, everything will be centered around Bitcoin.

Soham Mehta (23:51.19)
are pretty interesting because that way your cash stays at the exact same value throughout the process, right? So like you don't really have as much of a bear market as you would if by holding the actual Bitcoin. So I think as you go from a wealth growth mindset to like a wealth preservation mindset, I would start like shifting away from just pure Bitcoin. But I still think throughout all of it, everything will be centered around Bitcoin as like the ultimate asset class to be invested through.

George Pu (23:51.363)
interesting because that way your cash stays at the exact same value throughout the process, right? So like you don't really have as much of a bear market as you would if by holding the actual Bitcoin. So I think as you go from a wealth growth mindset to like a wealth preservation mindset, I would I would start like shifting away from just pure Bitcoin. But I still think throughout all of it, everything will be centered around Bitcoin as like the ultimate asset class. to that. I think it is the ultimate

Matt (24:13.636)
as like the asset class.

Soham Mehta (24:19.374)
I think it is the ultimate asset class. think it will continue to be the only point where it will not make sense to like Have all of your wealth and Bitcoin is eventually when Bitcoin ization occurs I don't know how long that's gonna take it could take a hundred years where you know We're on the curve where everything's placed in Bitcoin and then people are like, okay Yeah, I'm gonna have the majority my wealth in it But like until then I think there's just more and more folks that are getting into it We have a Larry Finks of the world the CEO of BlackRock saying

George Pu (24:21.283)
I think it will continue to be the only point where it will not make sense to like have all of your wealth in Bitcoin is eventually when Bitcoin ization occurs I don't know how long that's gonna take it could take a hundred years where you know We're on the curve where everything's priced in Bitcoin, and then people are like okay Yeah, I'm gonna have the majority my wealth in it, but like until then I think there's just more and more folks that are getting into it We have the Larry thinks of the world to see you a black rock saying

Matt (24:43.63)
that are getting into it. have the Larry Finks of the world, CEO of BlackRock saying Bitcoin is putting the US dollar reserve status at risk. I'm bullish, man. I'm bullish. Okay, awesome. And thank you for our listeners for listening to our discussions. Give us a like and subscribe if you like it for more. Thank you.

George Pu (24:47.873)
Bitcoin is putting the US dollar reserve status at risk. I'm bullish, man. I'm bullish. Okay, awesome. And thank you for our listeners for listening to our discussions. Give us a like and subscribe if you like it for more. Thank you.

Soham Mehta (24:48.27)
Bitcoin is putting the US dollar reserve status at risk. I'm bullish man, I'm bullish. Okay, awesome. And thank you to our listeners for listening to our discussions. Give us a like and subscribe if you like it. Thank you.